Avgas fueling

[++TopDogg++]

Hey all,

Question.... Why can avgas not be loaded while pax on board, or boarding or leaving aircraft? Is it because it does not contain an antistatic additive?
The CAO says you cannot, but i cant see the why not.

Any input?

Cheers

[widewindsidewinder]

Well welcome to the world of aviation. It might not make sense, but it's the law!
Refuelling with AVGAS is not allowed with pax on board as it (or the vapour) is more susceptible to ignition from static charges as opposed to JetA1 with an anti-static additive.

The bottom line is, you cannot refuel an aircraft with AVGAS with pax on board, so in answer to your question, yes.
Just remember that these orders cover everything from mucking around in a Gryo to longhauling it to LA in an A380 so remember to keep your mind open! It can trip you up!

[millotte]

Hey all,

Question.... Why can avgas not be loaded while pax on board, or boarding or leaving aircraft? Is it because it does not contain an antistatic additive?
The CAO says you cannot, but i cant see the why not.

Any input?

Cheers

It probably has a lot to do with the flashpoint of avgas, and the flammable vapours as mentioned. Spill some on a hot exhaust or hot engine from overfilling etc and presto...

[RHchip]

first word that pops in to mind.....................fire

[Cleanskin]

I've seen a R22 burst into flames after it was being hot refuelled and the tank over flowed onto the hot exhaust and boom!

[skywiz]

All to do with Flashpoint of the fuel. AVGAS has a lower flashpoint than JETA1. 'Flammable' fuels are anything with a flashpoint lower than 38deg C. Fuels above this are rated as 'Combustible' fuels. AVGAS has a flashpoint of around minus 43°C, therefore any form of spark/static electricity can easily ignite the fumes. JETA1 on the other hand has a flashpoint of +38deg C making it far less volatile. The flame spread rate is another important factor, AVGAS flame spread is approx 215-245 m/min whereas JETA1 is only about 30m/min. You may have experienced this throwing some petrol on a camp fire 'Whoof' where as Diesel on other hand ignites at a slower/more controlled rate.
On the legal side, beware, most manufacturers of aircraft which use AVGAS prohibit hot refuelling. The manufacturers Flight Manual takes precedence over any Civil Aviation Laws or company operating manuals. One of the latest Flight Safety magazines had a bit to say about this. If you are asked to hot refuel and the POH does not permit it (R22 & R44 are prime examples) DON'T DO IT unless you're up to facing criminal charges, jail time and loss of your licence! Let alone any assets that you may be lucky enough to own if you manage to injure anyone in the process. Fly Safe people.

[Robinsondog]

One of the latest Flight Safety magazines had a bit to say about this. If you are asked to hot refuel and the POH does not permit it (R22 & R44 are prime examples

)

Interesting, of course the crash comic is a CASA orientated magazine. Does that hold water that statement or not? I mean about the POH taking precedence over a CASA directive, say?

[choppermech1986]

I've seen lots of avgas spilt over hot exhausts and I've never seen one burn. Of course my heart used to stop a little but I've seen it happen that often now that I hardly bat an eyelid. I personally think that it needs a spark as the hot exhaust simply causes it to evaporate quicker. A freak wind blowing avvy into the vent cap on the magneto, the alternator or a rogue static spark would worry me a lot more than the hot exhaust.

[Zebt]

I've seen lots of avgas spilt over hot exhausts and I've never seen one burn. Of course my heart used to stop a little but I've seen it happen that often now that I hardly bat an eyelid. I personally think that it needs a spark as the hot exhaust simply causes it to evaporate quicker. A freak wind blowing avvy into the vent cap on the magneto, the alternator or a rogue static spark would worry me a lot more than the hot exhaust.

In a fire fighting course I did the lecturer loved the part where he pours petrol onto a glowing hot plate, just a hiss and nothing, then gets the cooking oil and WHOOOF! The point of course wash flash point. Also of interest in fire stuff is self ignition temperatures. So the spark is the most dangerous thing for any material to combust.

[KNOW NUFFEN]

Skywiz, great explanation to educate all and sundry. Well done.....KN

[chopperdavo]

If the POH doesn't specifically prohibit it, does than not means it acceptable....

[CYHeli]

CAR 138 Pilot to comply with requirements etc of aircraft’s flight manual etc
(1) If a flight manual has been issued for an Australian aircraft, the pilot in command of the aircraft must comply with a requirement, instruction, procedure or limitation concerning the operation of the aircraft that is set out in the manual.
Penalty: 50 penalty units.

The law says that we must comply with the POH.
The law will normally win out over a POH, so if there is a conflict, go with what the law says.

As an aside, the Safety Notices are advice or a guideline and not legally enforceable is my understanding,

This section provides miscellaneous suggestions...

But an insurance company would certainly ask, "On the balance of probability, shouldn't you have ...?"

I have seen Ops Manuals allow hot refuelling of Robinsons, but that is why the law says with no one on board. Again, abide by the Ops Manual.
Hot re-fuelling, CAO 20.10 for those that don't have a current copy.

[Edited for links]

[++TopDogg++]

Thanks for all the response, some excellent points! Thanks all

[sprocket]

Is it legal to carry Jerry cans of AVGAS in a aircraft?