Schweizer 300 to Robinson 44 difficulty

[isobelstone26]

Hi all,

I am in the process of doing my R44 rating after completing my CPL (H) with 105 hours on the Schweizer 300 and am finding the hovering quite difficult to master.. I know a lot of people will say I should have learnt in a 22 or at least completed my final 20 hours in a 44, though unfortunately I did not do that and am now paying the price

I am quite disheartened and frustrated that I am finding the 44 so difficult to control. I have definitely improved since my first flight, however the hover still is not perfect and maintaining perfect position or trying to hover downwind tests me.

I was curious as to whether or not anyone else has had a similar experience or has any advice on how to overcome this as the two machines are very different. The general overall flying and handling is good, however the hovering has me stumped.

Any advice would be much appreciated, or at least to know i'm not alone on the difficult transition

Cheers!

[Helicoil]

Just some basics really, keep the eyes up / outside / look medium to long range. Steady cyclic, active feet, don't over-control (esp with cyclic). The lack of feedback through the controls due to the hydraulics normally takes a couple of sessions to get used to, so don't beat yourself up too much if you can't hover like a pro straight away. What you need to remember is that you need the same amount of cyclic input on a machine with hydraulics as one without, the difference being the hydraulics will isolate you from the rotor disc forces, and give you the impression that you need more movement when you really don't. When it starts becoming a handful, as in a strong wind coming from the LHS, keep the cyclic steady, and make sure your feet are donig their job properly. Use your fingers and wrist to move the cyclic, not the arm. Lastly, make sure you're not cross-controllling (ie fixing drift caused by yaw by moving the cyclic instead of the feet)

[Evil Twin]

RELAX!!!!!! The more tense you are the more mechanical and sharp edged your hover will be.

Light touch on the cyclic (try tucking three fingers behind the grip so you hold with index finger and thumb) especially after coming from a 300 and don't stomp around on the pedals like an elephant. The TR is now on the end of a much longer lever and you must be smoother with it. Been a while since I flew a 44 but it's more a wiggle of the toes than moving of the legs/ankles. Definitely look long/middle as has been said.

[Heliduck]

Focus on being safe, not perfect.

Forget about being perfect & before you know it you'll be perfect.

[scaarj]

Might also be a bit of an issue with the cyclic. The Schweizer 300 is fully articulated? The 44 has the teetering head and thus I find it gives you a bit more lag and the whole pendulum effect is something that takes time to get used to.
Perhaps try to slow it all down and make sure you do the whole 2 move movements with the cyclic, i.e correct drift then center.

I initially had 22 time, then transitioned to the cabri. Coming back to the 44 was interesting, found myself 'stirring the pot' a couple times and becoming infuriated with myself haha. Just needed to pause, fix, then proceed.

Anyways your instructor should be able to help you out.

[havick]

Don't overthink the cyclic, fly with two fingers. I initially had the same issues of over controlling the 44 when I was in exactly the same situation as you. Find that neutral place for the cyclic and feel where your arm rests on your leg, then just fly with fingertips once you find that neutral spot, same as flying a hughes 300.

[kh4]

2 things, you need a comprehensive brief in the classroom showing the effects of the pendulum effect, you need to have that good understanding and know that the disc itself is quite stable unlike you dangling underneath, i use a tennis ball on a piece of string to demonstrate how the ball will come back by itself. Picture the disc and train the brain and resist the urge to fix something that is not broken. the other is
Have your instructor not to concentrate too much on the hover but to move around in ground effect in set patterns, start off at whatever speed you need to be stable and safe, continue the pattern getting slower and slower, this will also take the pressure off of trying to hover, you need to get your confidence back. we all know the link between confidence and competence.
all the best
KH

[Icefather]

Don't overthink the cyclic, fly with two fingers. I initially had the same issues of over controlling the 44 when I was in exactly the same situation as you. Find that neutral place for the cyclic and feel where your arm rests on your leg, then just fly with fingertips once you find that neutral spot, same as flying a hughes 300.

Having just completed the conversion after 150hrs 300 time . The first few flights I was stirring the pot . Hover was crap, radios where crap, approaches were high and fast. found the pedals strange and jerky, from memory I was all tense because it was all new.

I had 3.5 weeks between my type conversion and the next one I flew. That break although I was still worried about my flying was a lot more stable. And I surprised myself believing I could now do it . I actually like flying the 44, a lot quicker too !

My suggestion is not to rush it and relax, watch how your instructor takes off and hovers, the 2 finger thing is a good suggestion.

Personally, I think if you learnt in a 22 you may find the conversion to a 44 easier, having already dealt with the God-forsaken T-Bar, and teetering system. but having trained on a 300 you are more aware of the rpm (no Governor), ground resonance, and how to fall out of the sky really quickly. But all these guys with a few thousand hours flying 212s and 350s all had to start somewhere.

It will get easier.

[oneadi]

I remember having the same problem, I found it to be the T-bar that moves up and down, Feels very Odd, and unusual. I did all 300 than a r44 endo.
Its like any other Helicopter, it just takes time in the seat. Unfortunately it sounds like your still paying for that time.(correct me if i am wrong).
The mechanics are the same. Remember you have 100+ in the 300, and less than 3 (if your doing your endorsement) in the R44.

[Pitchpull]

Mate don't be too hard on yourself I went through the exact same thing! It's a very sensitive machine compared to the 300 so I was constantly overcorrecting to start with, also the CG changes from having 2 90kg bloke's in the front to solo and full tanks was an eye opener.

As its been mentioned, just relax and let the new skill develop.

[SuperF]

Try resting your wrist on your knee, and just move the cyclic with your fingers. It works on JRs and Hueys, so is a good habit to get into...

Ive only got 40 min in a 300 and nothing in a 44, so thats about all i can tell you....

[ChicoCheco]

Yes.
Resting hand on leg and small movement.
That's how one needs to fly Robbies with the Tbar.
Especially with turbulence, else one does PIO unwillingly. Allows small corrections in hover. Small correction, center.

With they hydraulics, you don't have feedback, so for example lateral control is more finnicky, especially setting it down. Need to have positive movement vertically, controlled as last few inches the machine gets very sensitive and wants to drift and easy to overcorrect. Slope landings not as easy as R22.

Also as has been said, due to tail cone length, the arm is longer for any TR thrust changes. Pedals work except hover auto or stuck pedal exercises etc, is more about having heels planted and just using toes and sometimes it feels like PRESSURE rather than movement.

Footwear.
Good grip sole will make the heel planted toes moving, difficult. Without any sliding, need to move heel/end up pushing whole lower leg.
More flexible/thin/flat shoes without trek/boot style Vibram grip, shall help with fine control.

I flew Cabri (felt stupid after hundreds of hours in Robbies, subconsciously flying autos like R22 and stirring pot when it just wants to fly itself in hover) not 300 and the other way round, but what some said and I mentioned again/added, is from learning to fly r22 and then 44.

Autorotations should be easier for you. Not aiming straight down, haha. Mind long tail in flare.

Also, just in case. With the governor moving the twist grip throttle, especially pick up and set down, you want to have one or two fingers on throttle loosely and move collective with the rest/palm near little finger. Avoids dragging the RRPM against governor. Beginner's thing, but since you are new to Robbies, something to consider. No idea if it's any factor. For me using glove on left hand helped. Sweat wicking and letting governor move the grip.